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	<title>Comments on: Agora playtest, and reworking a narration/mechanical interface</title>
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	<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/</link>
	<description>Impatient game design from Dev Purkayastha.</description>
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		<title>By: Josh W</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2804</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2804</guid>
		<description>One thing to note, if you put it a hook, it will limit someone; it will add an extra layer of dependence to the fiction. Now I wouldn&#039;t assume that it must just be the player who plays it who gets restricted, it could be that he chooses it because it will restrict his opponent. In other words if you use a certain resource, then that effects how he can respond to it.

So certain kinds of attack against your council will only add to their power, so the other player might have to insure they listen to what your resource is to insure they can counter it, something like that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing to note, if you put it a hook, it will limit someone; it will add an extra layer of dependence to the fiction. Now I wouldn&#8217;t assume that it must just be the player who plays it who gets restricted, it could be that he chooses it because it will restrict his opponent. In other words if you use a certain resource, then that effects how he can respond to it.</p>
<p>So certain kinds of attack against your council will only add to their power, so the other player might have to insure they listen to what your resource is to insure they can counter it, something like that!</p>
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		<title>By: DevP</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2564</link>
		<dc:creator>DevP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2564</guid>
		<description>To be clear, this isn&#039;t all playtest reports - in part (like discussing my narration of positions), I was proposing what would be necessary to make that a fictionally meaningful part of the proceedings, rather than a straight mechanics move. When we played, the position rolls were just a straight mechanics move, but that was perhaps unsatisfying? It was time taken up mechanically (&quot;hah! i push forward a *5*!!&quot;) that wasn&#039;t tactically rich and didn&#039;t add to the fiction. (Hence, if it&#039;s just mechanical, I want it to take even less time.)

I checked the play guide, and it does say that, after positioning, you &quot;narrate how you are preparing to act&quot;.

Let me explain the &quot;context-free narration hooks&quot; thing, which is simpler than I made it sound. Your rule explicitly says &quot;do X; now narrate something&quot;. But there&#039;s a lack of fictional cue about what I&#039;m narrating, or whether there&#039;s a fictional or mechanical importance to what is being narrated. I know generally what I&#039;m narrating - describe getting closer to your goal, basically - but continuing to narrate that sort of thing abstractly is exhausting after a time, and there really is no reason for it. This is why it seems to be in the &quot;parlor narration&quot; category, because there&#039;s mechancis and there&#039;s narration afterwards but it would be functionally the same regardless of what was narrated.

In DitV, the fictional &quot;raise&quot; is as important as the mechanical one, but that not the case with positioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be clear, this isn&#8217;t all playtest reports &#8211; in part (like discussing my narration of positions), I was proposing what would be necessary to make that a fictionally meaningful part of the proceedings, rather than a straight mechanics move. When we played, the position rolls were just a straight mechanics move, but that was perhaps unsatisfying? It was time taken up mechanically (&#8220;hah! i push forward a <strong>5</strong>!!&#8221;) that wasn&#8217;t tactically rich and didn&#8217;t add to the fiction. (Hence, if it&#8217;s just mechanical, I want it to take even less time.)</p>
<p>I checked the play guide, and it does say that, after positioning, you &#8220;narrate how you are preparing to act&#8221;.</p>
<p>Let me explain the &#8220;context-free narration hooks&#8221; thing, which is simpler than I made it sound. Your rule explicitly says &#8220;do X; now narrate something&#8221;. But there&#8217;s a lack of fictional cue about what I&#8217;m narrating, or whether there&#8217;s a fictional or mechanical importance to what is being narrated. I know generally what I&#8217;m narrating &#8211; describe getting closer to your goal, basically &#8211; but continuing to narrate that sort of thing abstractly is exhausting after a time, and there really is no reason for it. This is why it seems to be in the &#8220;parlor narration&#8221; category, because there&#8217;s mechancis and there&#8217;s narration afterwards but it would be functionally the same regardless of what was narrated.</p>
<p>In DitV, the fictional &#8220;raise&#8221; is as important as the mechanical one, but that not the case with positioning.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Roby</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2556</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Roby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2556</guid>
		<description>Okay.  It&#039;s becoming plain that your narration, or at least the bulk of it, should come after you roll or place dice.  The dice function best as a constraint to the fiction, so knowing what you roll is useful for what you choose to narrate.

I am also getting the impression that you had too much fictional significance loaded onto your positioning.  Which is an error of the text, if it gave you that impression.  When you take your turn to position, you aren&#039;t *doing* anything — you&#039;re getting ready to do stuff.  Placing dice is where you&#039;re doing and acting.  So if you&#039;re going in expecting your positioning roll to tell you how successful you were, you are going to be disappointed.  At best, a good positioning roll will tell you if you are in position to complete a goal in X number of turns (your &quot;I take it&quot; suggestion is close to a lot of table chatter I have heard in playtests).  So that&#039;s another bit to highlight in the text — positioning rolls are for introducing elements of the fiction, not immediately using them.

I am not quite following you on the context-free narration hooks comment — or rather, I might understand what you&#039;re talking about, but I&#039;m not quite sure, and I don&#039;t want to fall into a situation where we&#039;re both talking past each other.  Can you unpack a bit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay.  It&#8217;s becoming plain that your narration, or at least the bulk of it, should come after you roll or place dice.  The dice function best as a constraint to the fiction, so knowing what you roll is useful for what you choose to narrate.</p>
<p>I am also getting the impression that you had too much fictional significance loaded onto your positioning.  Which is an error of the text, if it gave you that impression.  When you take your turn to position, you aren&#8217;t <strong>doing</strong> anything — you&#8217;re getting ready to do stuff.  Placing dice is where you&#8217;re doing and acting.  So if you&#8217;re going in expecting your positioning roll to tell you how successful you were, you are going to be disappointed.  At best, a good positioning roll will tell you if you are in position to complete a goal in X number of turns (your &#8220;I take it&#8221; suggestion is close to a lot of table chatter I have heard in playtests).  So that&#8217;s another bit to highlight in the text — positioning rolls are for introducing elements of the fiction, not immediately using them.</p>
<p>I am not quite following you on the context-free narration hooks comment — or rather, I might understand what you&#8217;re talking about, but I&#8217;m not quite sure, and I don&#8217;t want to fall into a situation where we&#8217;re both talking past each other.  Can you unpack a bit?</p>
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		<title>By: DevP</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2401</link>
		<dc:creator>DevP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2401</guid>
		<description>Something to highlight: first, my extra narrative procedure here would not be enough for some players to feel attachment.

Secondly, I think I want to emphasize the problem of tying mechanics to narrative without much at stake or consequence. When this breaks down, it&#039;s sometimes called &quot;parlor narration&quot;, i.e. when the narration is separate from the mechanical move, and where they are not related. Whereas, say, a fictional &quot;raise&quot; in Dogs could have more influence than the mechanical weight tht goes along with it, I didn&#039;t see a strong equivalent for some steps (such as placing). So, hence my suggestion to minimize the context-free narrations hooks, or to give them some other kind of hook.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something to highlight: first, my extra narrative procedure here would not be enough for some players to feel attachment.</p>
<p>Secondly, I think I want to emphasize the problem of tying mechanics to narrative without much at stake or consequence. When this breaks down, it&#8217;s sometimes called &#8220;parlor narration&#8221;, i.e. when the narration is separate from the mechanical move, and where they are not related. Whereas, say, a fictional &#8220;raise&#8221; in Dogs could have more influence than the mechanical weight tht goes along with it, I didn&#8217;t see a strong equivalent for some steps (such as placing). So, hence my suggestion to minimize the context-free narrations hooks, or to give them some other kind of hook.</p>
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		<title>By: Kallisti Press &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Story Games Boston playtests Agora</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2400</link>
		<dc:creator>Kallisti Press &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Story Games Boston playtests Agora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2400</guid>
		<description>[...] Purkayastha has posted some thoughts on the Story Games Boston playtest of Agora. I&#8217;m really happy that SGB — folks who tend [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Purkayastha has posted some thoughts on the Story Games Boston playtest of Agora. I&#8217;m really happy that SGB — folks who tend [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DevP</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2399</link>
		<dc:creator>DevP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2399</guid>
		<description>Josh: I don&#039;t quite recall. Me personally, I think I did a little bit both before and after. &quot;I&#039;m rallying the Council of Eden... (roll) ...and I guess the fuck it up!&quot; For others, I only narration I recall is before rolling in a new resource, explaining (if necessary) how to the new resource would be used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh: I don&#8217;t quite recall. Me personally, I think I did a little bit both before and after. &#8220;I&#8217;m rallying the Council of Eden&#8230; (roll) ...and I guess the fuck it up!&#8221; For others, I only narration I recall is before rolling in a new resource, explaining (if necessary) how to the new resource would be used.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Roby</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2398</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Roby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2398</guid>
		<description>Hey Dev (and others)!

First off, thanks so much for giving the game a whirl.  Feedback is precious honey, even when it seems like it&#039;s all negative.  And that is not the case here — this is very illuminating.

For most of your thoughts and suggestions, all I can say is YES.  That&#039;s certainly the spirit of the game, and all of the non-mechanical suggestions you give you could use in the game as-written.

I have one question before I go off and start assuming things — were you narrating before or after you rolled dice?

Jonathan, the game is (or perhaps becomes is better) intensely political.  While you start play with everybody coming in from different directions, in the process of play those distinctions get fuzzy.  Alliances blur lines.  Often the &#039;national&#039; distinctions collapse, and you do get something akin to political parties within the same nation-state.  By endgame, if all goes as envisioned, the ideogogues (and obstacles) are factions operating in the same polity, that polity being the entire planet.  Now obviously, all this should be explicated in the book — I have a &#039;what to expect&#039; section planned in Mastery, and this will probably go there.  But thanks for highlighting what needs to be included! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dev (and others)!</p>
<p>First off, thanks so much for giving the game a whirl.  Feedback is precious honey, even when it seems like it&#8217;s all negative.  And that is not the case here — this is very illuminating.</p>
<p>For most of your thoughts and suggestions, all I can say is YES.  That&#8217;s certainly the spirit of the game, and all of the non-mechanical suggestions you give you could use in the game as-written.</p>
<p>I have one question before I go off and start assuming things — were you narrating before or after you rolled dice?</p>
<p>Jonathan, the game is (or perhaps becomes is better) intensely political.  While you start play with everybody coming in from different directions, in the process of play those distinctions get fuzzy.  Alliances blur lines.  Often the &#8216;national&#8217; distinctions collapse, and you do get something akin to political parties within the same nation-state.  By endgame, if all goes as envisioned, the ideogogues (and obstacles) are factions operating in the same polity, that polity being the entire planet.  Now obviously, all this should be explicated in the book — I have a &#8216;what to expect&#8217; section planned in Mastery, and this will probably go there.  But thanks for highlighting what needs to be included! :)</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Walton</title>
		<link>http://games.forgreatjustice.net/2009/06/19/agora-playtest-and-reworking-a-narrationmechanical-interface/comment-page-1/#comment-2394</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Walton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://games.forgreatjustice.net/?p=171#comment-2394</guid>
		<description>I actually really like your West Wing talking heads approach, but that would suggest that the game is much more about politics than I got from playing the game or skimming the text.  I definitely thing it&#039;s much more interesting if the different factions are the equivalent of political parties, vying for control over the same &quot;public,&quot; rather than different nations or ways of life with their own independent citizenries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually really like your West Wing talking heads approach, but that would suggest that the game is much more about politics than I got from playing the game or skimming the text.  I definitely thing it&#8217;s much more interesting if the different factions are the equivalent of political parties, vying for control over the same &#8220;public,&#8221; rather than different nations or ways of life with their own independent citizenries.</p>
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